TheApple

JoelHeffner,

You my cast your opinions on any statement I make....However, to say I am PreJudice.....You might need to look up the word.

The word PreJudice means to Pre judge.

I have not Prejudged the Jews........Again, I do apologized you feel in the manner in which you do about my statement.

I think you live in New York.....Well, I lived in Miami, Florida for quite sometime.  Nothing I have said in my statement you highlighted can be proven to be incorrect....For surely i am not going into details on what i said.  Yet, I can back up my statement with books, and other resources ....so be that as it may in you thinking with a possible unspiritual mind...God chose the Jews as his own people.  He also chose Job...Where did he say you would not suffer?  What some people see in only the natural I can talk all day.  Jews Profited from their struggle.  They profited in cohensiveness, unity, and the level of oppression made them work harder to assure it would never happen again.  It made them work together and coexist.  They profited from being oppressed.  Where do you think they would be if they never were oppressed.  African Americans did not prosper.....at all from oppression....! Neither did Native Americans it left them disenfranchised.

So, it just appears to me many are very Narrow in thought......"Think Outside the Box"

Johnslat,

Again, the site you gave is no more informative then being amongest Jewish people....who have actually been in and through Holocaust.  It does not change my point of view. 

When I say Profited......I think I might have spoken in a term that seems like they during the oppression profited...Not at all as to what I am saying.  I believe I used Job....He suffered but his reward was sweet.....Jews suffered but the lesson learned made them a Powerful people and Force to be dealth with if you decided to harm them as a whole........No tell me if you can African Americans say that? no.....The girls team of Ruckers suffered a horrible attack on them by radio commentator.....There was talk and it was a debate as whether he should stay on the radio....or not...."Imas"

Arsenal Hall, Micheal Jackson, many other people have made Anti-Jewish comments.....Well, the Jewish quickly banned together to get rid of the T.V. show and to get apologies for insults. 

No one will be able to convince me that you can come up with a number of 6,000,000 and in the Middle Passage no factual number.  Jews are not classical condition to self hate.

My Goal is to make everyone Understand.....their is no Greater Gain in Oppression.....Profited  the  more I hear it , it sounds like they made money during Holocaust...Not at all what I am saying.  Sometimes oppression can bring out the Best in a People.....

Yet, you can talk with me all day long.  Eventually i will look at the information you sent me.  Always open minded...However, can you tell me anything you know at all about the Middle Passage.  Can you tell me about RoseWood, or Emmitt Till....can you tell me about Native American and African Americans in as much detail as you can Jewish....

Again, the site you gave is no more informative then being amongest Jewish people....who have actually been in and through Holocaust.  It does not change my point of view. 

In other words, "Don't bother me with the facts."

When I say Profited......I think I might have spoken in a term that seems like they during the oppression profited...Not at all as to what I am saying.  I believe I used Job....He suffered but his reward was sweet.....Jews suffered but the lesson learned made them a Powerful people and Force to be dealth with if you decided to harm them as a whole........No tell me if you can African Americans say that? no.....The girls team of Ruckers suffered a horrible attack on them by radio commentator.....There was talk and it was a debate as whether he should stay on the radio....or not...."Imas"

Are you forgetting that Imus was fired?

Arsenal Hall, Micheal Jackson, many other people have made Anti-Jewish comments.....Well, the Jewish quickly banned together to get rid of the T.V. show and to get apologies for insults. 

I have no idea what you are talking about.

No one will be able to convince me that you can come up with a number of 6,000,000 and in the Middle Passage no factual number.  Jews are not classical condition to self hate.

No one will be able to convince you because you have pre-judged the facts. Incidentally, much (i.e. 'Jews are not classical condition to self hate' and 'Jews are not classical condition of self hate.') of what you say just doesn't make sense.

My Goal is to make everyone Understand.....their is no Greater Gain in Oppression.....Profited  the  more I hear it , it sounds like they made money during Holocaust...Not at all what I am saying.  Sometimes oppression can bring out the Best in a People.....

Your goal is to make everyone understand what? It seems that what you want folks to understand is a very Neo-Nazi attitude of Judaism and world history where facts don't matter and prejudice is rampant.

Yet, you can talk with me all day long.  Eventually i will look at the information you sent me.  Always open minded...However, can you tell me anything you know at all about the Middle Passage.  Can you tell me about RoseWood, or Emmitt Till....can you tell me about Native American and African Americans in as much detail as you can Jewish....

Don't bother looking at the site, you already made up your mind.

 There would seem to be some dispute about why Mr. Hall's show was cancelled; in addition to allegations that the Jewish Antt-Defamation League was responsible, there are these other contenders:

1. The Catholics were responsible: "Comedienne La Wanda Page, formerly of "Sanford and Son," appeared on the "Arsenio Hall Show" and proceeded to tell a blasphemous story about a "converted" prostitute in church.

2. The Gays were responsible: "During a May 1991 taping, Arsenio lost his temper when three or four members of Queer Nation, apparently offended because Hall's producers refused to book Gus Van Sant to promote his gay-themed film My Own Private Idaho, interrupted Hall's opening monologue to ask why he never had any gay guests on his show. Members of the group were seated in different parts of the audience. The heated exchange went on for several minutes, and Hall lost his temper two or three additional times as the show progressed."

3. Poor Ratings: Chambers, however, writes that "it always seemed certain,

	to critics as well as fans, that whatever bumps his show

	might absorb in the ratings, it would never go off the air.

	How wrong they were."  You can see where this is headed:

	to the charge that something drove Arsenio off the air

	besides ratings.  Unfortunately, Arsenio was already well

	on his way to driving himself off the air at the time that

	the watershed event -- Dave Letterman's signing with CBS

	-- occurred.  His rating was already well below the 3 mark

	*before* the Letterman pact was announced.  Hall had actually

	improved his clearances from 1989-90, and yet his audience

	had shrunk to half its peak size with no signs of reversing.


4. Career Change: Will you extend your Paramount contract? 
AH: I need to have things that make me nervous. Once you say, ''I got this,'' it's time to move on. Otherwise you become complacent. I need to take on other challenges.        


Regarding Michael Jackson:"The man, alleged to be Jackson, says, "They (Jews) suck. They're like leeches... I'm so tired of it... they start out the most popular person in the world, make a lot of money, big house, cars and everything. End up penniless. It is conspiracy. The Jews do it on purpose."   
Michael Jackson attorney Brian Oxman doesn’t dispute that the singer left a recorded phone message calling Jews “leeches”, where he allegedly accused Jews of leaving performers penniless.  However, most of Mr. Jackson's problems seem to stem a lot more from allegations of child molestation rather than from antisemitism.

 Dear kmfelder55,

"All of you want to attack me on my views...with NO Respect."

Actually, I believe that I have been respectful in my posts. But this whole discussion - who suffered the most - is really kind of sad. How do you measure the quantity and quality of persecution? If it's by years and probably by numbers, then the Jewish people have a good case: over 2000 years of persecution and so many millions killed (and not only in the Holocaust, by any means, as you can document if you go to that website I provided?)

All prejudice - whether it be based on race, gender, ethnic background, sexual orientation, age, etc. - is ignorant, hateful, and just plain wrong.

Does it really matter who has suffered most from it - does the "winner" of the "persecution contest" get some sort of prize?

I have an idea - let's all agree that far, far too many people, be they Blacks, Jews. Native Americans, Hispanics, Muslims, Gays, etc. have been the victims of stupidity and hate.

And let's all agree NEVER to prejudge ANYONE, NEVER to HATE anyone. If you must "judge", then do it on an individual basis. There are people I choose not to spent much time with, but that's NOT based on any superficial quality such as color or nationality or religion or eye color. It's based on my not liking them AS INDIVIDUALS. And that OK, I think. Although ideally we SHOULD love everyone, I'm afraid I haven't managed to reach that desired state yet. But I do not HATE, and I would never deny anyone their rights and the respect due to every human based on something that is as irrelevant (to me, anyway) as skin color, religion, etc.

First off I have not prejudged anyone....If you think a book is more impactful than being in a church where Jews and Christians talk about the Holocaust and actually accounts and people who have experienced the Holocaust is more Impactful... Mr. Joel Heffner you have major issues.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

Mr. Crisp, John Slat, and for surely Joel Heffner all of you have yet to tell me something about the number of Africans lost being brought to America....the exact number.  You can not tell me no one knows......Just like Jews have a close estimate...but not an actual number.

Who cares about numbers?

You can tell about the brutality of Jews in the Holocaust that lasted during the World War 2.  However, I can tell you that African Americans, Hispanics, are being discriminated against right NOW.

So? What does this have to do with anything?

You can tell me that Jews did not profit from the Oppression they received....Yet everyone struggle can make or break you...They are Powerful people, their money is within their community, Jews have political Power, and they have Financial Power.. 

The Jewish people have a long history of achievement. They receive substantially more awards for medicine and science and economics than their numbers would expect. They have achieved positions of authority due to hard work...NOT because of the Holocaust! You seem to be mixing things up.

All of you want to attack me on my views...with NO Respect....In my classroom students are told to say what they feel....Other students are made to respect exactly how that person feels....As a teacher my goal is to ask the student where are you getting your information from?  I have listed just two of the books I have read.  None of you outside of Mr. John Slat has given me vaild information.....

Your facts are clouded by your prejudice.

Mr. Crisp due to you not being African American you statements to me are OPINIONS...Now can any of you tell me I am not of a Jewish decendent...My last name dervied from Feldman.....? Can you deny I am African-American? 

Now you're saying that if someone is not part of a group, they can not provide facts about the group. That is rediculous on its face.

I hold true to what I have said Oppression is Horrible.  However, each race process the oppression in a different manner.  Jews were never introduced to self hate because they had to stick together.. Jews did not go through being brought over to American Against their will and forced into to serving a thankless race of people! 

Again, you simply don't know the facts. Jews were slaves thousands of years ago.

If you read through all of these points made...There are only three people in the midst....JohnSlat , Mr Crisp and Joel tell me do not select to ignore What exactly do you know about Slavery outside of what you were taught....what have you researched?  

This conversation was about the Holocaust, not about Afro-American History.

JohnSlat you proved my point....Micheal Jackson made a comment about Jews and like a raging force Jews stop it and requested an apology.  A book store in Florida place President Barack Obama and Michelle Obama in their showcase surrounding them with monkies....NOthing was done.  No raving force to say a word.

Michael Jackson was indicted for crimes. What does that possibly have to do with Jews? Because people in Florida might be idiots, how does that relate to this conversation.

Slavery has always been the dirty little secret in America. 

Yikes! This is beginning to sound like a comedy routine.

Well, to me America did not enslave Jews...America owes them nothing....Germany on the other hand played a key point in the enslavement to Jews......Yet, America killed many Native Americans.....and casinos is all they get? Free education and land?  What exactly has African Americans been given for the atrocities committed "Nothing" If you say Affrimative Action...I will laugh you out of the book store.  That movement profited White Females, and some African Americans. 

Your knowledge, or more accurately, lack of knowledge of American history is astounding. And you want to be a social studies teacher!

I will asked the three of you Again where is your reference on the study of African Americans?  I truly believe that you have none!  Again, the word "profited" is incorrect......However, Jews ban together and became Powerful....Japanese did the same thing....Tell me that African Americans ban together?  Again, I will laugh you out of the bookstore..  Willie Lynch exist today in many African Americans as it did in the past....The Making of a Slave....

Da....

I have answered the question.....Mr. Joel Heffner you can be as disrespectful to my comments and accuse me of NeoNazis..but just as your last name clues me in...Mind should clue you in and not the color of my skin.   Jewish men married African American women.....

First, I couldn't care less who is or who is not Jewish. Second, my name usually is associated with Germans. Third, you can't hide behind a name when you make astonishingly crazy comments.

Debo I have to agree,  I understant KM's points, but in her delivery she seems

too hotty which boils on racism (which to me is a BIG NO NO).  None of use here

on the Apple are the end all be all, we all have our opinion.  We all have our set of

facts.  Once again as I have stated before to do a true study of the Holocaust one has

to read NIGHT by Wesiel to get a grasp of it.  As KM stated all three instinces where

horrable. However what each has done sense, has been their decision.  Blacks have

faught for 150 years to have equality, now that we should have equality, the Afro-American

still seems to be on defense instead of steping up to the rest of america as equals.  KM

don't come off so hottie and join us instead of trying to fight us.  To we the BORG resistance

is.....  WE are the UNITED States of America, to the DEVITED States of America.

 Your teachings go nowhere unless you learn how to talk to others in a respectful tone.   We, here in The Apple, may be learning, but only through our own abilitites to share and garner information from one another on a friendly basis...we are not here to be lectured, we did not sign up for this as an on-line school.   You may have many credentials, but your social skills are lacking.   I tried to say that nicely, but, I now know that you cannot hear it.

I wish you good luck.

I'm through with you.  

 Dear kmfelder55,

"I think you all have Learn something....If you took the time to read with out perception........!  I do apologize but when I am on a site such as this....I am an educator.....Social Worker, and Minister......"

I'm always willing and eager to learn - that's one reason I became a teacher over thirty years ago. But I try to read with perception rather than without it (as you wrote.) And I have to agree with debo - if you are an educator, Social Worker, and Minister, you need to hone your social skills a bit more, I'd say. It's not accidental or coincidental that your posts have offended and disturbed some of us here. If this is the way you debate and teach, then I'd say that you ill make very few converts to your positions.

I thank you, though, for the information about IBM  - I'd been unaware of that before. As you may already be aware, IBM was not alone in putting profit before morals/ethics; Ford and GM were also guilty:

 Ford and GM Scrutinized for Alleged Nazi Collaboration

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/daily/nov98/nazicars3...

Hmm, maybe the hard economic time the Detroit auto companies are experiencing now are God's payback -  but more likely just the result of incredibly stupid mismanagement.

Regards,

John

P.S. By the way, regarding this:

"Yet, I encourage all of you to explore other cultures outside of your own....'

I've visited seven African countries, taught in Iran, Saudi Arabia and Indonesia (a total of twenty-two years) , and traveled to every continent except Antarctica.

yes KM you do have a tone, as if you have came to teach we teachers.  i.e.

here we don't take kindly to that.  Yes we don't know you personaly.  I don't know John

personaly, but over the conversations and years of talking I feel as if I do. The

same goes for Don, Debo, and Bobble.  All four of us have had hot spots along

the way, but we have never brow beat each other.  Sometimes though I am

sure you don't mean to you do come off that way in your words.  This isn't a debate

club.  I agree we have to agree to disagree on this topic. But please watch the tone.

http://samdavidson.blogspot.com/2009/05/change-world-by-changing-conversation.html

Bobblehead,

If you want to change the World change the conversation.  Sounds good!

Yet, I strongly feel that people need to see themselves and their limitations on perception.  If you have read through this blog. I initally answered the question.

I can be in a group of people and listen to negativity and it will never effect me.  I have too much standing on my arms to be effected.

In this blog I never once insulted one person.  I do not think I ever said I disagreed with anyone.   I however, stood fast to what I research and gave reference to people who paid attention as JohnSlat..He got educated. He stated he did not know IBM had anything to do with the Holocaust.  I have been amongest enough Jews that I should be...However, i am Christian all day long...I believe in Jesus.  Some Jews believe in him to.

When I hear teacher....this is the way I was raised....I should be able to say anything to a teacher RESPECTFULLY and get a MIND transforming....thought!!!! or something to make me OPEN to a new Horizon.....That is what TEacher means to me and my family.

I am a Teacher...lacking classroom experience!!!!!!    I teach my children everyday!  I teach my Sunday School class!!!! I have Trained CEO in diversity!  So, outside of a classroom setting...I am not a teacher....Well, to say let me educate you by this group is seen as talking down to them.....Yet, JohnSlat was educated....It frightens me when people are too stuck in thought process to accept New or thought provoking ideas......Many refused to accept we have a Black looking President...Now, I see him as having a African Father and a White mother.....so he is African American........yet, Michelle Obama is just like me Black.......a descendent of Africans.......

I see why many Americans are having problems with acceptance.....Lack of knowledge on acceptance!  Lack of knowledge on how to see and think outside of the box....by the year 2016...We will be A melting pot of people.....If you stay trap in a lock way of negative thinking we will be destin to repeat the past........My mind is open and I have to Love my neighbor even if his way of thinking is skewed!

bobbleHead,

I can agree with you on that Profited, was not the word I was looking to use...needed a better choice of words....because only IBM, other business profited from it.

However, the trial and tribulation Jews went through makes them closer as a people...More Unified.  I think I cleared it up in one of my statements....However, there are many on this site who has gained my respect based upon this discussion.

Thank you and Have a Super Day!

 Dear WalrusFarmer,

" the Jewish holocaust while a prominant example seems to over shadow all the rest. It should be taught along side other terrible examples . . ."

There are, I think, two main reasons regarding why the Holocaust "overshadows all the rest": scope and relative proximity in time.

The two you mentioned - the Armenian genocide: approximately 1 1/2 million deaths, from 1914 to 1918; the US genocide in the Philippines: approximately 1 1/2 million deaths  from 1899-1902 - are, unfortunately, overshadowed by the approximately 6 million victims of the Holocaust 1939 - 1945.

I definitely agree that such atrocities should be taught alongside each other and should NEVER be forgotten. And there are others, especially in Africa, Asia and Southeast Asia, that need to be remembered.

Humans, however, tend to be impressed by numbers and by how historically close in time such terrible events as these have taken place.

Not many, I suspect, have these in their memories:

The Old Testament describes the genocides of Amalekites and Midianites. Jones quotes Jerusalem-based Holocaust Studies Professor Yehuda Bauer: "As a Jew, I must live with the fact that the civilization I inherited ... encompasses the call for genocide in its canon."

Ben Kiernan, a Yale scholar, has labeled the destruction of Carthage at the end of the Third Punic War (149–146 BC) "The First Genocide". Quoting Eric Margolis, Jones observes that in the 13th century the Mongol horsemen of Temüjin Genghis Khan were genocidal killers (génocidaires) who were known to kill whole nations leaving nothing but empty ruins and bones.

From the 1490s when Christopher Columbus set foot on the Americas to the 1890 massacre of Sioux at Wounded Knee by the United States militia, theindigenous population of the Western Hemisphere may have declined, mostly from disease, by as many as 100 million. In Brazil alone the indigenous population has declined from a pre-Columbian high of an estimated 3 million to some 300,000 (1997). Estimates of how many people were living in the Americas when Columbus arrived have varied tremendously; 20th century scholarly estimates ranged from a low of 8.4 million to a high of 112.5 million persons. This population debate has often had ideological underpinnings. Robert Royal writes that "estimates of pre-Columbian population figures have become heavily politicized with scholars who are particularly critical of Europe and/or Western civilization often favoring wildly higher figures."

To respond to the original question which asks if we should and do teach the Holocaust in school.

The school in which I work does. We do a unit every spring with our students. Each year we do a different topic.

This year we read Jacob's Rescue" by Drakkar in my sixth grade language arts classroom.

To begin this unit, I create two seperate sections in my classroom.

I called parents from each class for permission for this activity.

Two students are picked from each class to pick classmates to travel to one or the other designated spot.

As I read information about the Holocaust the students chosen are either taken to a five foot square representing

the concentration camps, a three foot square representing the death camps,

and those not chosen are the representation of those who escaped with their lives.

I spoke with parents about this because my students are 11 and 12 years old.

The parents thought this was a good way to create visual representation of historical facts in fictional literature.

My administration was impressed with the way I cover this and then also explain what is currently going on in other

countries that is just as destructive and cruel.

We also had a guest speaker that came and talked about this.

We also address the fact that the Jewish are not the only people to suffer such injustices,

but there are many peoples that are still suffering today and it is up to us to make a stand even

if it is just respecting those around us enough to accept each others differences.

I have never traveled outside this country, but it does not mean that I

am not aware of what is not placed in the media.

I have friends in different countries and I do understand what is going on in this world.

I may not have the resources to travel to another place to help change it.

However, it is my responsibility to be the change in my community.

So yes, I do think we should teach about the autrocities people have lived and died through.