Which side is right? HA! Neither and both.

Peace cannot be attained through violence. Like all learning, peace must be modeled before it can be learned.

Deven says ...

Peace cannot be attained through violence. Like all learning, peace must be modeled before it can be learned.

Tell that to the WWII vets.

I have told that to WWII vets, Korea vets and Vietnam vets. Actually, it was a vet who pointed this out to me and turned me onto to Gandhi.As John says, there is a HUGE difference between victory and peace. I am not saying that WWII did not need to be fought, just that one cannot expect peace to result from violence. It never has and never will.

What would you do if a  country just randomly attacked the US with rockets, motars, RPG for six mos. launching over 6,300 mixed artilery?

So then your saying you would do nothing for the sake of peace, with innocent victims of all types are ruthlessly murdered with no provocation. Also the enemy that is doing this is culturaly and publicly stated that they will continue to do so untill the US is obliterated. Would you still not fight, if not for the sake of peace but for self defense?

No, I'm not saying do nothing. I am saying that if you choose to respond with violence and manage to win, it will not bring peace.

Peace is not merely the absence of a present battle. Peace is the eliminatrion of threat because you have reached an accord that is mutually beneficial.

Look at World War One, for example. The Allies won the war, but there was no peace because the Treaty of Versailles that ended that war was unfair to Germany. The result was deep resentment which directly led to World War Two. Winning that war did not bring peace, either. There is no reason to expect that winning any war will bring peace.

Peaceful settlements bring peace.

MagPro85, 

You wrote, "The Palestinian do nothing but create havoc. The world would be a better place if they didn't exist.

...they choose to place their artillery near schools, hospitals and have such low disregard for human life. Palestinian men are terrorist, Palestinian women breed terrorist, and their children a terrorist clones. They are indoctrinated from children to do this and will continue until either that change that mindset or accomplish their goals. I say Israel should delete them from existence."

This is like saying all liberals are Godless or all gay men are after little boys or every Christian follows the words of Jesus. It just ain't so my friend.

Hamas has the Palestinian people living in Gaza fearful of speaking out against them. The problem is when an extreme

faction with extreme views and missile/fire have the power. 

The United States should work with the international community, not on its own. The situation is more complex than your analysis . Thank God (Allah) you are not pushing the buttons.

As you can see its not in their interest for any kind of peace. The US should not get involved (what would be the result). Should the US get involved then we would have yet another war in our hands. There would be no end to all the wars.

Diplomacy has failed.

1-If Hamas is so good then why in the past decade have they always broken all peace treaties and attacked Israel?

2-Since Hamsa was "voted" into power, they had no interest in peace as depicted by their charter. If the Palestinians did not agree with Hamas wouldn't they have elcted some other group. Have you ever tried to rationalize evil? Can you explain to me why all of Germany (save a handful of good men) followed Hitler?

 Thanks MagPro85. On complex foreign matters such as the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

seems to be a theme on this blog. Welcome to my world. Its called selective reading. You will get used to it.

Tip O'Neill, the former speaker of the House of Representatives, is well known for saying "all politics is local. This is also true in the Middle East.

Hamas did not win the election because of their ideology; they won because they promised to build schools, hospitals, and the economy. They won becausse they provided basic services like sanitation in areas where the then-current Palistinian government had not.

Besides, they were elected in what was generally acknowledged to be a fair democratic election. Isn't that what the US has been promoting around the world? Is democracy onlty good if the 'right' people win?

I am not supporting Hamas and more than I am supporting Israel when I point out that neither society is unified in opposition to the other. There are a great many Palestinians who want to work with and in Israel, and there are many Israelis who want to work with Palestinians.

The first step toward peace, and the one you seem unwilling to take, is to acknowledge that the enemy, whoever they may be, are people just like yourself and, as such, have exactly the same right to existence that you do. When that happens it becomes very hard to shoot at them, bomb them or hate them. Whole countries that once wanted to wipe Israel off the map have been able to change their outlook because they recognized the humanity of their enemy, and you could too.

When one makes rash comments like "the world would be a better place if they didn't exist," it sounds like Hitler talking. Is that really how any of us wish to be regarded?

MagPro, I can prove that diplomacy works. None of us have shot at you and you, to the best of my knowledge, have not shot at any of us. Let's keep talking.

Words are stronger than guns. Guns just build more resentment on both sides. Resentment lingers, which is why there is no peace after violence.

Words create time for resentments to work themselves out, to change minds and hearts. Peace ensues.

 I spent over twenty years in the Middle East. The conflict between Israel and the Arabs is incredibly complex, and there are NO blacks or whites - only greys:

E.G: The state of Israel was founded on land stolen from the Palestinians, land that they had been living on for many centuries. And the state of Israel came about, in part, through terrorism:

"In 1944, with the end the war in sight, Irgun, now under the leadership of Menachem Begin , the future Prime Minister of Israel 1977-83, began to attack the British administration in Palestine, starting with bomb attacks on the immigration offices, tax offices and police stations. Because the war was not yet over these activities met with condemnation even from the Jewish Agency and Haganah, the main Jewish Defense Force, and the forerunner of the Israeli Army. This disapproval did not deter Irgun or the Stern Gang, and in 1944 the Stern gang murdered Lord Moyne the British Minister of state for the Middle East in Cairo, and started a series of bomb attacks on British installations.In November and 1945 there were some serious Arab Jewish riots in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. These riots were put down by the 3rd Parachute Brigade part of the newly arrived 6th Airborne division. These riots lasted seven days resulting in some loss of life.During December 1945, the focus of the Jewish attacks shifted to RAF airfields, police stations and armories. There was frequent exchanges of fire and some loss of life on both sides. The High commissioner, Lord Gort , left Palestine in November 1945 and was replaced by another British general Sir Allan Cunningham. Cunningham decided to mount a major blow against the IZL and on the 28 to June 1946, 17,000 British troops flooded into Jerusalem to carry out Operation Agatha. The Jewish Agency offices were raided, arms found and the agency shut down, with a large number of Jews suspected of terrorism being arrested. Jewish terrorists soon started planning the a reprisal for Operation Agatha and made plans for the bombing attack on the King David hotel (91 people were killed, most of them British.)"

smallwars.com/Palestine/kidnap.htm">http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Palestine/kidnap.htm

The Arabs, of course, have used terrorism as a weapon for decades there. Here is a list of JUST the incidents in 2008:

 Jan 15, 2008 - Carlos Andrés Mosquera Chávez, a 21-year-old volunteer from Quito, Ecuador, was killed by a Palestinian sniper from the Gaza Strip as he was working in the fields of Kibbutz Ein Hashlosha. The Hamas Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades claimed responsibility for the shooting.

Jan 24, 2008 - Border Guard Lance Corporal Rami Zuari, 20, of Beersheva was shot and killed at a checkpoint at the northern entrance to Shuafat, north of Jerusalem. The Battalions of Struggle and Return, a previously anonymous offshoot of Fatah's Aksa Martyrs' Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.

Feb 4, 2008 - Lyubov Razdolskaya, 73, of Dimona was killed and 38 wounded - Razdolskaya's husband critically - in a terror attack carried out by a suicide bomber at a shopping center in Dimona. A police officer shot and killed a second terrorist before he detonated his explosive belt. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack and praised it as an "heroic act".

Feb 27, 2008 - Roni Yihye, 47, of Moshav Bitcha in southern Israel, a student at Sapir College, was killed Wednesday afternoon when a Kassam rocket exploded in a parking lot near the Sderot campus. He died shortly after sustaining massive wounds to his chest. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Mar 1, 2008 - St. Sgt. Doron Asulin, 20, of Beersheba and St. Sgt. Eran Dan-Gur, 20, of Jerusalem were killed in an exchange of fire with Hamas terrorists during an IDF anti-terror operation in northern Gaza targeting rocket launchings. The gunmen reportedly fired mortar shells, antitank and RPG missiles at the soldiers.

Mar 6, 2008 - An IDF soldier - a Bedouin tracker, 27 - was killed during a routine patrol along the security fence in the central Gaza Strip, near Kissufim, when Palestinian terrorists detonated an explosive device near the jeep in which he was driving. Hamas and the Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack. St.-Sgt. Liran Banai, 20, of Ashkelon, the critically wounded jeep driver, succumbed to his injuries on Sunday, March 9.

Mar 6, 2008 - Eight students of the Mercaz Harav Yeshiva in Jerusalem were killed when a terrorist armed with a Kalashnikov assault rifle infiltrated the yeshiva and opened fire in the library where about 80 people were gathered, mostly teenagers. Eleven others were wounded, three critically. The terrorist, a resident of East Jerusalem, was killed by an IDF officer.

The victims: Segev Peniel Avihail, 15, of Neve Daniel; Neria Cohen, 15, of Jerusalem; Yonatan Yitzhak Eldar, 16, of Shilo; Yehonadav Haim Hirschfeld, 19, of Kokhav Hashahar; Yohai Lifshitz, 18, of Jerusalem; Doron Meherete, 26, of Ashdod; Avraham David Moses, 16, of Efrat; and Ro'i Roth, 18, of Elkana.

Apr 9, 2008 - St.-Sgt. Sayef Bisan, 21, of the Druze village of Jat in the western Galilee was killed in an exchange of fire with Palestinian terrorists in an overnight IDF operation against terror infrastructure in the southern Gaza Strip. Two soldiers were wounded.

Apr 9, 2008 - Oleg Lipson, 37, and Lev Cherniak, 53, both of Beersheba, were killed when Palestinian terrorists, after firing a salvo of mortars at the Nahal Oz area, penetrated the fuel terminal and opened fire on the civilian employees.

Apr 16, 2008 - Three IDF soldiers - Sgt. Menhash al-Banyat, 20, of the Bedouin community of Kseife in the Negev; Sgt. Matan Ovdati, 19, of Moshav Patish in the western Negev; and Sgt. David Papian, 21, of Tel Aviv - were killed in a confrontation with armed Palestinian gunmen approaching the Gaza security fence south of the Nahal Oz fuel terminal. Three other soldiers were wounded.

April 25, 2008 - Two Israeli security guards, Shimon Mizrahi, 53 of Bat Hefer and Eli Wasserman, 51, of Alfei Menashe were in a shooting attack in the Nitzanei Shalom industrial park in central Israel. A terrorist managed to infiltrate into the area, opened fire at the guards at close range and fled. The Al-Quds Brigades of the Islamic Jihad organization and Izzadin al-Qassam of Hamas claimed joint responsibility for the attack.

May 9, 2008 – Jimmy Kadoshim, 48, a member of Kibbutz Kfar Aza, was killed by mortar fire from the Gaza Strip while tending his garden.

May 12, 2008 – Shuli Katz, 70, a member of Kibbutz Gevaram, was killed while visiting relatives at the small settlement of Yesha, located some 15 kms (9 miles) from the Gaza Strip

June 5, 2008 - Amnon Rosenberg, 51, of Kibbutz Nirim was killed and four other employees were wounded when a mortar bomb fired by Palestinian terrorists from the Gaza Strip exploded outside the Nirlat paint factory in Kibbutz Nir-Oz. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

July 2, 2008 - Elizabeth (Lili) Goren-Friedman, 54; Batsheva Unterman, 33; and Jean Relevy, 68 - all of Jerusalem - were killed and over 50 wounded in a terror attack in Jerusalem. Driving a bulldozer on Jaffa Road between the Central Bus Station and the Mahane Yehuda market, the terrorist plowed into cars and pedestrians as well as two public buses (Egged buslines 13 and 60) carrying some 50 passengers. Police shot and killed the terrorist.

Probably the BEST book on the subject is this:

The Arab-Israeli Conflict